Novels and RPGs

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:30 pm

There was a thread a while ago about what we're reading, and it got me thinking about the connection between novels and RPGs (usually in the fantasy genre, for me).

I often borrow concepts from my books for my games, so I thought I'd start this thread to share novels that can improve the gaming experience. Without further ado, here are some of my favorites.

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Sheepfarmer's Daughter by Elizabeth Moon (often collected with the sequels into The Deed of Paksenarrion). This is the paladin story. Tired of Dudley Do-Right Lawful-Stupid paladins, or Batman-esque "heroic psycho" paladins? Paks will show you what a paladin is meant to be. Ignore the blurbs that imply it's some sort of sequel to LotR; it's not.

Oath of Swords, by David Weber (plus sequels). A good example of the "reluctant paladin" (the deiy literally pesters him into accepting the duty); but once he accepts the mantle of champion, he does it whole-heartedly. Also a good take on half-orcs (Weber' "hradani" race), insofar as how the li'l bastards interact with the "civilized" races.

The Briar King by Greg Keyes (plus sequels). Aspar White is one of several main characters, and he is a ranger's ranger. He uses stealth, skill, cunning and dirty tricks to take down his enemies, and his love of the forest is much better crafted than any "nature-loving hippie" ranger. Also a damn fine series.

The Sword of Shannara and innumerable sequels, by Terry Brooks. This is your sorcerer material. Magic is a wild, uncontrollable force that inevitably alters those who wield it. Even magic items are fraught with danger - the Elfstones alter a man's DNA, the title Sword is as dangerous to friend as to foe. This is how WotC should've written sorcerers.

Bard by Keith Taylor (and Bard II, III, IV, V). The title says it all: this is how the bard class should work. Our hero isn't some sort of glorified back-up singer; he's a jack-of-all-trades who can charm savages and fight beside them. Be warned: later books get depressing.

Shadow, by Anne Logston (plus sequels). Shadow the elven thief is charming, clever and unscupulous - and unshakably loyal to her friends. She's the thief every gamer wants to play. The perfect rogue, and the equal of Lieber's Gray Mouser.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:00 pm

Wait. So these are books with gaming usefulness or good books?

Because that's potentially very different in nature.

If its useful gaming influences, All I can think is to point to Micheal Moorcock and maybe Edgar Rice Burroughs (and any pulpy friends) and say "There. wacky world building, that easy, and if that's too hard steal their ideas, everyone else did."

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:29 am

Okay, maybe an ignore feature could help increase the discourse with replies like these.

-Crissa

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:39 am

Crissa wrote:Okay, maybe an ignore feature could help increase the discourse with replies like these.

I suppose you're seeing something I'm not, because:

PhoneLobster wrote:Wait. So these are books with gaming usefulness or good books?

Because that's potentially very different in nature.

If its useful gaming influences, All I can think is to point to Micheal Moorcock and maybe Edgar Rice Burroughs (and any pulpy friends) and say "There. wacky world building, that easy, and if that's too hard steal their ideas, everyone else did."

... looks pretty appropriate. What I hear from anime, for example, made it clear to me that "having some elements useful for adventures/settings" is entirely different from "actually worth watching" or "interesting theme for a game as a whole".

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:14 am

Crissa wrote:Okay, maybe an ignore feature could help increase the discourse with replies like these.

:
No idea what you're talking about.

PhoneLobster wrote:Wait. So these are books with gaming usefulness or good books?

Because that's potentially very different in nature.

Gaming usefulness...although being a good book on its own is a plus.

I consider all the ones I listed to be "good books" as well as gaming inspiration. YMMV.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:17 am

Magician (and its sequels) by Raymond Feist works pretty well for just taking the setting and holding a campaign within it. It has everything in place that you need, it's basically the result of a D&D campaign, and there isn't much in the way of "Oh, we never considered that" in the design.

Of course, to actually just put a campaign in it, you'd need to consider what not to include - I don't think it'd react well to Wishes and so forth.

It's also a really good book.

I tend to get all kinds of ideas from reading the Discworld series - it just has many little things that work really well.

shirak · Post by **shirak** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:45 pm

The Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb is the background for assassin types and even goes into Sorcerer/Psions in a fantasy setting.

The Coldfire Trilogy by C. S. Friedman is all about how a Paladin and Vampire Wizard change by adventuring together. In fact, read anything by Friedman.

The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher is how Urban Fantasy (read: WoD) should be.

Finally, Mindstar Rising and sequels by Peter F. Hamilton is how I'd want near-future Shadowrun to be.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:40 pm

Koumei wrote: I tend to get all kinds of ideas from reading the Discworld series - it just has many little things that work really well.

Same here. I use the series and ideas for when I want to throw the DM (or the players) a curveball about setting ideas, mostly. Although thanks to the Discworld Death, I often argue that a Death God doesn't have to be evil.

That being said, I often just think about the conventions being used in front of me and try to see how I can twist them, like throwing in undead and fiends who aren't traditionally evil--or who, for their own reasons, are on the side of the PC's for this conflict.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:39 pm

Are you talking about the same Farseer books that were about carnivorous dinosaurs that had personal space issues as a species?

Ramnza · Post by **Ramnza** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:34 am

I enjoy George R.R. Martin's series A Song of Ice and Fire.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:09 am

Recently read through Dark Tower and has definitely gotten me in the mood to play a gunslinger-esque character.

One of my favorite settings that I've dm-ed as have been a variation of the Neverwhere market (enlarged to a city).

I've also toyed with Amber and Gaiman's Sandman for setting ideas.

Of course all three of the above always require me to just nip and take things from them here and there.

Right now, I'm trying to find the "Dayworld" series which I hear works well.

Incidentally, phonelobster, it has a lot of pulp as well.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:15 am

Green Ronin is putting out the new rpg for Song of Ice and Fire. They got a demo book/adventure on their website. anyone had a look?

traverse · Post by **traverse** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:04 am

I still want to use Book of the Swords by Fred Saberhagen as a low magic setting.

Hell, just about any fantasy novel you can think of that you liked growing up could be used verbatim for a campaign, depending on what you know about your players' reading lists. I just recommended Lawrence Watt-Evans' The Misenchanted Sword to my DM, and nobody else in the group had even heard of it.

angelfromanotherpin · Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:27 pm

ckafrica wrote:Green Ronin is putting out the new rpg for Song of Ice and Fire. They got a demo book/adventure on their website. anyone had a look?

Yes. It is crap.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:13 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
ckafrica wrote:Green Ronin is putting out the new rpg for Song of Ice and Fire. They got a demo book/adventure on their website. anyone had a look?
Yes. It is crap.

Too bad...Green Ronin usually makes quality stuff.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:01 pm

Let me be more specific. I'm not one of the math/balance guys here, so I don't know if its horribly unbalanced or broken or anything. And I've only seen the free intro thing, so I can't speak to the system as a whole.

Nevertheless, it is crap.

My favorite example: one of the sample characters is a knight who has the following ability

Anointed
You may draw strength from your commitment to the knightly virtues. Once per day, as a Free Action, increase both Defenses and all passive ability results by +5 for 1 round.

So, apart from the ability having no connection to its own fluff (What are the knightly virtues? Does anything happen if you betray those virtues?), it's a completely boring per day defensive buff. The hell?

The worst part is that the authors totally get the things that make Westeros interesting - there's a long list of those things at the beginning of the text. They just have no idea how to evoke those things with rules. So instead they just put OURS IS THE FURY! and similar all over the place, hoping no-one will notice that anyone could quote the source material and have the fans respond.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:38 pm

That sounds...not horrible, just...meh. Which, for something that's supposed to emulate Westeros, is horrible (Westeros is many things, but it's never "meh").

Maybe GR is just better writing their own stuff...or maybe this particular author is just an idiot.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:53 am

Cool. Thanks Talisman, threads like these save me lots of time in skimming novels in a library.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:11 am

I took a quick look at GR's pre release and one thing I thought interesting was buying wounds. So instead of getting knocked down immediately at zero hits, you converted the damage into a form of penalty. It seemed a good way of doing some things like tournaments or brawls where the outcome would not necessitate wanting a serious injury yet you could prevent yourself from going down in a life or death situation.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:56 pm

I finally laid hands on the beginning of the Swords series by Fred Saberhagen.

I'm having to read it five or ten pages at a time, but it's pretty good.

Although my DnD Nerdery keeps asserting itself and trying to stat the Swords...